Load Specifications
Load data in caliber 8.5 mm Messner Mag. with .338 | 172gr | Sax KDG-S bullet and 94 powders. The key underlying parameters are shown in the table above. The recommended powders for this cartridge and bullet combination are ReloadSwiss RS 70, Alliant Reloder-17 and ReloadSwiss RS 60.
Important Notice: DO NOT go below Minimum Charge or above Maximum Charge. Since we have no control over the equipment and components used, any responsibility and liability for the results achieved is rejected.
Only powders/loads that match the current filter criteria are displayed: max pressure of a load ≤ 90% of max. standardized pressure, fill rate ≥ 80% and propellant combustion ≥ 95%. Use the sliders above the tables to adjust these thresholds.
Charge: Powder weight in grains. Start with the minimum load and work up carefully.
FR (Fill Rate): Case fill as a percentage. Values above 100% mean compressed loads.
MaxP / %: Maximum chamber pressure in bar and as a percentage of the standardized maximum for this caliber.
V(0): Muzzle velocity in feet per second (fps) at the standardized barrel length.
z (Powder Burn): Estimated propellant combustion percentage at bullet exit.
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You can find more information in our FAQ: How can I use the Personalized Load Calculator?
Max Load - Barrel Length: 25.6"
| Powder | Charge | FR | MaxP | % | V(0) | z |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Accurate 2015 | <<locked>> | 84% | 57,740 psi | 90% | 3091 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2495 | <<locked>> | 88% | 57,145 psi | 90% | 3120 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2520 | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,956 psi | 89% | 3173 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2700 | <<locked>> | 92% | 57,130 psi | 90% | 3123 fps | 97.4% |
| Accurate 3100ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 48,080 psi | 75% | 2999 fps | 96.8% |
| Accurate 4064 | <<locked>> | 88% | 56,971 psi | 89% | 3153 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 4350 | <<locked>> | 96% | 56,666 psi | 89% | 3241 fps | 99.7% |
| ADI AR 2206H | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,651 psi | 87% | 3127 fps | 99.9% |
| ADI AR 2208 | <<locked>> | 90% | 56,666 psi | 89% | 3126 fps | 99.7% |
| ADI Benchmark 8208 | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,491 psi | 85% | 3117 fps | 100% |
| Alliant AR-Comp | <<locked>> | 82% | 55,695 psi | 87% | 3052 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,376 psi | 87% | 3251 fps | 99.7% |
| Alliant Reloder- TS 15.5 | <<locked>> | 90% | 57,159 psi | 90% | 3154 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Reloder-15 | <<locked>> | 88% | 57,551 psi | 90% | 3175 fps | 99.8% |
| Alliant Reloder-16 | <<locked>> | 98% | 57,029 psi | 89% | 3245 fps | 99.8% |
| Alliant Reloder-17 | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,549 psi | 85% | 3225 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Reloder-23ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 45,165 psi | 71% | 3025 fps | 99.3% |
| Alliant Reloder-26ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 50,241 psi | 79% | 3206 fps | 98.8% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 107 | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,376 psi | 87% | 3135 fps | 99.5% |
| Bofors RP3 | <<locked>> | 88% | 54,766 psi | 86% | 3120 fps | 100% |
| Bofors RP7 | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,404 psi | 85% | 3081 fps | 96.7% |
| Hodgdon Benchmark | <<locked>> | 82% | 55,898 psi | 88% | 3055 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon BL-C2 | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,463 psi | 87% | 3179 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon CFE223 | <<locked>> | 82% | 57,725 psi | 90% | 3294 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon H380 | <<locked>> | 88% | 55,230 psi | 87% | 3126 fps | 99.1% |
| Hodgdon H414 | <<locked>> | 92% | 56,550 psi | 89% | 3204 fps | 97.8% |
| Hodgdon H4350 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,694 psi | 86% | 3182 fps | 96.6% |
| Hodgdon H4895 | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,246 psi | 88% | 3137 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon Hybrid 100V | <<locked>> | 98% | 53,476 psi | 84% | 3113 fps | 99.9% |
| Hodgdon LEVERevolution | <<locked>> | 90% | 57,566 psi | 90% | 3251 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon Superformance | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,477 psi | 87% | 3212 fps | 97.2% |
| Hodgdon TrailBossᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 37,043 psi | 58% | 1957 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon VARGET | <<locked>> | 90% | 57,624 psi | 90% | 3199 fps | 100% |
| IMR 3031 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,187 psi | 86% | 3105 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4064 | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,434 psi | 87% | 3143 fps | 99.9% |
| IMR 4166 Enduron | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,563 psi | 86% | 3061 fps | 97.3% |
| IMR 4350 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,650 psi | 86% | 3153 fps | 97.3% |
| IMR 4451 Enduron | <<locked>> | 94% | 57,276 psi | 90% | 3189 fps | 98.1% |
| IMR 4831ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 54,868 psi | 86% | 3132 fps | 99.4% |
| IMR 4895 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,622 psi | 87% | 3154 fps | 99.9% |
| IMR 8208 XBR | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,491 psi | 85% | 3074 fps | 100% |
| Lovex D073.6 | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,159 psi | 88% | 3107 fps | 100% |
| Lovex S060 | <<locked>> | 84% | 54,766 psi | 86% | 3047 fps | 99.9% |
| Lovex S062 | <<locked>> | 88% | 56,391 psi | 88% | 3108 fps | 100% |
| Lovex S065 | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,840 psi | 88% | 3109 fps | 98.6% |
| Lovex S070 | <<locked>> | 96% | 56,869 psi | 89% | 3146 fps | 98% |
| Norma 201 | <<locked>> | 84% | 54,766 psi | 86% | 3073 fps | 100% |
| Norma 202 | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,071 psi | 86% | 3071 fps | 100% |
| Norma 203B | <<locked>> | 88% | 56,840 psi | 89% | 3161 fps | 99.9% |
| Norma MRPᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 49,603 psi | 78% | 3155 fps | 96.2% |
| Norma URP | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,926 psi | 86% | 3170 fps | 99.4% |
| Ramshot Big Game | <<locked>> | 88% | 57,522 psi | 90% | 3186 fps | 99.9% |
| Ramshot Hunter | <<locked>> | 98% | 57,305 psi | 90% | 3222 fps | 98.6% |
| Ramshot TAC | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,621 psi | 86% | 3086 fps | 98.6% |
| Ramshot Wild Boar | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,476 psi | 85% | 3108 fps | 99.8% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 14ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 37,637 psi | 59% | 2001 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 50 | <<locked>> | 88% | 55,172 psi | 86% | 3101 fps | 98% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 52 | <<locked>> | 84% | 54,578 psi | 86% | 3188 fps | 99.7% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 60 | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,259 psi | 85% | 3226 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 62 | <<locked>> | 96% | 56,014 psi | 88% | 3210 fps | 99.4% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 70 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,795 psi | 86% | 3231 fps | 99.1% |
| Rottweil R 901 | <<locked>> | 82% | 56,028 psi | 88% | 3061 fps | 100% |
| Rottweil R 902 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,463 psi | 87% | 3074 fps | 100% |
| Rottweil R 903 | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,665 psi | 86% | 3111 fps | 100% |
| Rottweil R 907 | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,404 psi | 85% | 3081 fps | 96.7% |
| Shooters World Long Rifle | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,840 psi | 88% | 3109 fps | 98.6% |
| Shooters World Match Rifle | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,159 psi | 88% | 3107 fps | 100% |
| Shooters World Precision | <<locked>> | 88% | 56,391 psi | 88% | 3108 fps | 100% |
| Shooters World SW4350 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,433 psi | 85% | 3163 fps | 98% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 11 | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,941 psi | 88% | 3168 fps | 99.9% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 7 | <<locked>> | 84% | 57,188 psi | 90% | 3128 fps | 99.2% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 9 | <<locked>> | 86% | 57,508 psi | 90% | 3149 fps | 99.9% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 3000 | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,608 psi | 87% | 3006 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 5000 | <<locked>> | 90% | 56,086 psi | 88% | 3003 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 7000 | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,941 psi | 88% | 3055 fps | 97.5% |
| Somchem S335 | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,303 psi | 87% | 3004 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S341 | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,463 psi | 88% | 3113 fps | 99.9% |
| Somchem S355 | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,810 psi | 86% | 3108 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S365 | <<locked>> | 98% | 53,301 psi | 84% | 3176 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S385ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 53,983 psi | 85% | 3102 fps | 96.4% |
| Unknown powder | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,796 psi | 87% | 3178 fps | 99.1% |
| Vihtavuori N130 | <<locked>> | 82% | 57,537 psi | 90% | 3001 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N133 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,405 psi | 87% | 2987 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N135 | <<locked>> | 88% | 56,043 psi | 88% | 3104 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N140 | <<locked>> | 86% | 54,766 psi | 86% | 3040 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N150 | <<locked>> | 96% | 56,043 psi | 88% | 3086 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N160 | <<locked>> | 94% | 56,420 psi | 88% | 3148 fps | 99.4% |
| Vihtavuori N530 | <<locked>> | 82% | 57,682 psi | 90% | 3135 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N540 | <<locked>> | 86% | 54,607 psi | 86% | 3067 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N550 | <<locked>> | 94% | 56,898 psi | 89% | 3200 fps | 99.5% |
| Vihtavuori N555ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 50,647 psi | 79% | 3108 fps | 99.2% |
| Winchester 6.5 StaBALL | <<locked>> | 96% | 57,493 psi | 90% | 3140 fps | 100% |
| Winchester 760 | <<locked>> | 92% | 56,550 psi | 89% | 3204 fps | 97.8% |
| Winchester StaBALL HDᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 40,466 psi | 63% | 3042 fps | 99.4% |
Recommended = one of the top powders for this cartridge and bullet combination.
Start Load - Barrel Length: 25.6"
| Powder | Charge | FR | MaxP | % | V(0) | z |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Accurate 2015 | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,082 psi | 80% | 2992 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2495 | <<locked>> | 80% | 43,888 psi | 69% | 2910 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2520 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,617 psi | 78% | 3058 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2700 | <<locked>> | 86% | 46,905 psi | 74% | 2943 fps | 95.2% |
| Accurate 3100 | <<locked>> | 96% | 41,466 psi | 65% | 2882 fps | 95.2% |
| Accurate 4064 | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,643 psi | 70% | 2946 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 4350 | <<locked>> | 82% | 35,607 psi | 56% | 2822 fps | 95.8% |
| ADI AR 2206H | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,269 psi | 77% | 3012 fps | 99.4% |
| ADI AR 2208 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,003 psi | 66% | 2849 fps | 97.7% |
| ADI Benchmark 8208 | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,184 psi | 80% | 3061 fps | 100% |
| Alliant AR-Comp | <<locked>> | 80% | 52,257 psi | 82% | 3003 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,237 psi | 71% | 3053 fps | 98.4% |
| Alliant Reloder- TS 15.5 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,206 psi | 66% | 2879 fps | 99% |
| Alliant Reloder-15 | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,976 psi | 70% | 2946 fps | 98.5% |
| Alliant Reloder-16 | <<locked>> | 84% | 37,072 psi | 58% | 2829 fps | 95.8% |
| Alliant Reloder-17 | 73.6 gr | 80% | 36,608 psi | 57% | 2844 fps | 97.5% |
| Alliant Reloder-23 | <<locked>> | 90% | 32,793 psi | 51% | 2733 fps | 95.8% |
| Alliant Reloder-26 | <<locked>> | 92% | 38,000 psi | 60% | 2930 fps | 95.3% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 107 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,704 psi | 76% | 3018 fps | 98.7% |
| Bofors RP3 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,409 psi | 66% | 2890 fps | 99.1% |
| Bofors RP7 | <<locked>> | 88% | 48,153 psi | 75% | 2963 fps | 95.3% |
| Hodgdon Benchmark | <<locked>> | 80% | 52,576 psi | 82% | 3000 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon BL-C2 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,486 psi | 76% | 3061 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon CFE223 | <<locked>> | 80% | 53,621 psi | 84% | 3225 fps | 99.8% |
| Hodgdon H380 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,772 psi | 67% | 2887 fps | 96.9% |
| Hodgdon H414 | <<locked>> | 86% | 46,238 psi | 72% | 3012 fps | 95.5% |
| Hodgdon H4350 | <<locked>> | 92% | 48,341 psi | 76% | 3064 fps | 95.1% |
| Hodgdon H4895 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,763 psi | 78% | 3026 fps | 99.7% |
| Hodgdon Hybrid 100V | <<locked>> | 80% | 30,458 psi | 48% | 2608 fps | 95% |
| Hodgdon LEVERevolution | <<locked>> | 80% | 41,176 psi | 65% | 2956 fps | 99.2% |
| Hodgdon Superformance | <<locked>> | 90% | 48,211 psi | 76% | 3075 fps | 95.5% |
| Hodgdon TrailBoss | <<locked>> | 80% | 27,035 psi | 42% | 1752 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon VARGET | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,206 psi | 66% | 2920 fps | 99% |
| IMR 3031 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,803 psi | 72% | 2950 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4064 | <<locked>> | 80% | 41,205 psi | 65% | 2871 fps | 98.2% |
| IMR 4166 Enduron | <<locked>> | 84% | 45,905 psi | 72% | 2896 fps | 95.3% |
| IMR 4350 | <<locked>> | 90% | 45,556 psi | 71% | 2979 fps | 95.2% |
| IMR 4451 Enduron | <<locked>> | 86% | 44,802 psi | 70% | 2956 fps | 95.4% |
| IMR 4831 | <<locked>> | 86% | 35,244 psi | 55% | 2744 fps | 95.1% |
| IMR 4895 | <<locked>> | 80% | 46,108 psi | 72% | 2980 fps | 99.1% |
| IMR 8208 XBR | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,184 psi | 80% | 3018 fps | 100% |
| Lovex D073.6 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,182 psi | 77% | 2993 fps | 100% |
| Lovex S060 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,646 psi | 76% | 2939 fps | 99.4% |
| Lovex S062 | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,440 psi | 70% | 2895 fps | 99.5% |
| Lovex S065 | <<locked>> | 84% | 41,495 psi | 65% | 2832 fps | 95.6% |
| Lovex S070 | <<locked>> | 88% | 44,715 psi | 70% | 2919 fps | 95.3% |
| Norma 201 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,631 psi | 76% | 2966 fps | 99.9% |
| Norma 202 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,834 psi | 77% | 2970 fps | 100% |
| Norma 203B | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,382 psi | 70% | 2933 fps | 98.8% |
| Norma MRP | <<locked>> | 98% | 46,253 psi | 72% | 3087 fps | 95.2% |
| Norma URP | <<locked>> | 84% | 37,637 psi | 59% | 2820 fps | 95.7% |
| Ramshot Big Game | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,092 psi | 69% | 2946 fps | 98.6% |
| Ramshot Hunter | <<locked>> | 88% | 41,669 psi | 65% | 2921 fps | 95.1% |
| Ramshot TAC | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,198 psi | 80% | 3024 fps | 98.1% |
| Ramshot Wild Boar | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,010 psi | 80% | 3048 fps | 99.6% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 14 | <<locked>> | 80% | 27,412 psi | 43% | 1793 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 50 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,859 psi | 67% | 2863 fps | 95.1% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 52 | <<locked>> | 80% | 47,732 psi | 75% | 3064 fps | 98.9% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 60 | 73.6 gr | 80% | 38,798 psi | 61% | 2915 fps | 99.7% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 62 | <<locked>> | 84% | 37,333 psi | 59% | 2837 fps | 95.4% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 70 | 80.4 gr | 86% | 39,421 psi | 62% | 2901 fps | 95.3% |
| Rottweil R 901 | <<locked>> | 80% | 52,852 psi | 83% | 3010 fps | 100% |
| Rottweil R 902 | <<locked>> | 80% | 46,369 psi | 73% | 2914 fps | 99.7% |
| Rottweil R 903 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,900 psi | 63% | 2828 fps | 98.4% |
| Rottweil R 907 | <<locked>> | 88% | 48,153 psi | 75% | 2963 fps | 95.3% |
| Shooters World Long Rifle | <<locked>> | 84% | 41,495 psi | 65% | 2832 fps | 95.6% |
| Shooters World Match Rifle | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,182 psi | 77% | 2993 fps | 100% |
| Shooters World Precision | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,440 psi | 70% | 2895 fps | 99.5% |
| Shooters World SW4350 | <<locked>> | 88% | 42,366 psi | 66% | 2930 fps | 95.2% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 11 | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,480 psi | 63% | 2873 fps | 97.9% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 7 | <<locked>> | 80% | 50,009 psi | 78% | 3004 fps | 98.3% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 9 | <<locked>> | 80% | 47,718 psi | 75% | 2977 fps | 99.2% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 3000 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,356 psi | 77% | 2906 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 5000 | <<locked>> | 80% | 41,510 psi | 65% | 2761 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 7000 | <<locked>> | 88% | 46,354 psi | 73% | 2883 fps | 95.5% |
| Somchem S335 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,211 psi | 77% | 2907 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S341 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,603 psi | 78% | 2998 fps | 99.4% |
| Somchem S355 | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,422 psi | 63% | 2831 fps | 98.4% |
| Somchem S365 | <<locked>> | 80% | 29,950 psi | 47% | 2654 fps | 96.4% |
| Somchem S385 | <<locked>> | 98% | 49,617 psi | 78% | 3042 fps | 95.7% |
| Unknown powder | <<locked>> | 82% | 38,145 psi | 60% | 2823 fps | 95.1% |
| Vihtavuori N130 | <<locked>> | 80% | 54,157 psi | 85% | 2951 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N133 | <<locked>> | 80% | 46,630 psi | 73% | 2848 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N135 | <<locked>> | 80% | 43,555 psi | 68% | 2904 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N140 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,542 psi | 71% | 2886 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N150 | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,650 psi | 54% | 2670 fps | 98.1% |
| Vihtavuori N160 | <<locked>> | 80% | 35,853 psi | 56% | 2737 fps | 95% |
| Vihtavuori N530 | <<locked>> | 80% | 54,027 psi | 85% | 3077 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N540 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,440 psi | 71% | 2909 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N550 | <<locked>> | 80% | 36,376 psi | 57% | 2782 fps | 95% |
| Vihtavuori N555 | <<locked>> | 88% | 33,591 psi | 53% | 2762 fps | 95.1% |
| Winchester 6.5 StaBALL | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,098 psi | 53% | 2675 fps | 96.8% |
| Winchester 760 | <<locked>> | 86% | 46,238 psi | 72% | 3012 fps | 95.5% |
| Winchester StaBALL HD | <<locked>> | 92% | 31,256 psi | 49% | 2763 fps | 95.6% |
Recommended = one of the top powders for this cartridge and bullet combination.
ᴾ possible press load - work up slowly to this load while watching for signs of excessive pressure.
This overview compares 94 powders for 8.5 mm Messner Mag. loaded with the .338 | 172gr | Sax KDG-S. Hodgdon CFE223 delivers the highest muzzle velocity at 3,294 fps; across all powders the maximum-charge window runs from 1,957 fps to 3,294 fps. Accurate 3100 gives the best case fill at 100 %, and 94 of the 94 powders fall inside the usable 80–100 % fill window.
Relative to the caliber's maximum pressure (440 MPa), the top charges use 58–90 %, leaving at least 10 % headroom. The 172.0 gr projectile in 0.338" calls for a 1:14.5 twist; slower twists will usually not stabilise this weight. Accurate 3100, Alliant Reloder-23, Alliant Reloder-26 reach 100 % fill or more at maximum charge, so these are compressed loads: they need a long drop tube to seat cleanly and react sensitively to the case capacity of your own brass lot. ReloadSwiss RS 70, Alliant Reloder-17, ReloadSwiss RS 60 rank at the top here: for 8.5 mm Messner Mag. with the .338 | 172gr | Sax KDG-S they combine a high case fill with complete burn and sit in the upper velocity band. Always begin at the start load and work up in small increments while checking case and primer for pressure signs.