Load Specifications
Load data in caliber 8.5 x 63 with .338 | 210gr | Rhino Solid Shank bullet and 93 powders. The key underlying parameters are shown in the table above. The recommended powders for this cartridge and bullet combination are Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR, ReloadSwiss RS 52 and ReloadSwiss RS 60.
Important Notice: DO NOT go below Minimum Charge or above Maximum Charge. Since we have no control over the equipment and components used, any responsibility and liability for the results achieved is rejected.
Only powders/loads that match the current filter criteria are displayed: max pressure of a load ≤ 90% of max. standardized pressure, fill rate ≥ 80% and propellant combustion ≥ 95%. Use the sliders above the tables to adjust these thresholds.
Charge: Powder weight in grains. Start with the minimum load and work up carefully.
FR (Fill Rate): Case fill as a percentage. Values above 100% mean compressed loads.
MaxP / %: Maximum chamber pressure in bar and as a percentage of the standardized maximum for this caliber.
V(0): Muzzle velocity in feet per second (fps) at the standardized barrel length.
z (Powder Burn): Estimated propellant combustion percentage at bullet exit.
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You can find more information in our FAQ: How can I use the Personalized Load Calculator?
Max Load - Barrel Length: 23.62"
| Powder | Charge | FR | MaxP | % | V(0) | z |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Accurate 2015 | <<locked>> | 88% | 53,954 psi | 87% | 2566 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2460 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,840 psi | 90% | 2635 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2495 | <<locked>> | 94% | 54,549 psi | 87% | 2625 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2520 | <<locked>> | 88% | 53,664 psi | 86% | 2644 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 4064 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,273 psi | 87% | 2664 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 4350ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 46,224 psi | 74% | 2615 fps | 97.5% |
| Accurate LT-30 | <<locked>> | 82% | 53,650 psi | 86% | 2516 fps | 100% |
| Accurate LT-32 | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,041 psi | 87% | 2536 fps | 100% |
| ADI AR 2206H | <<locked>> | 92% | 56,072 psi | 90% | 2697 fps | 99.6% |
| ADI AR 2208 | <<locked>> | 96% | 53,780 psi | 86% | 2644 fps | 99% |
| ADI AR 2219 | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,172 psi | 87% | 2628 fps | 100% |
| ADI Benchmark 8208 | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,419 psi | 89% | 2654 fps | 99.9% |
| Alliant AR-Comp | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,288 psi | 89% | 2635 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Power Pro 1200-R | <<locked>> | 84% | 53,708 psi | 86% | 2707 fps | 99.7% |
| Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,593 psi | 89% | 2802 fps | 99.3% |
| Alliant Reloder- TS 15.5 | <<locked>> | 98% | 56,217 psi | 90% | 2710 fps | 99.9% |
| Alliant Reloder-10x | <<locked>> | 84% | 53,896 psi | 86% | 2572 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Reloder-15 | <<locked>> | 94% | 53,940 psi | 86% | 2684 fps | 99.2% |
| Alliant Reloder-16ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 46,108 psi | 74% | 2621 fps | 97.6% |
| Alliant Reloder-17ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 53,272 psi | 85% | 2769 fps | 99.8% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 106 | <<locked>> | 84% | 56,130 psi | 90% | 2559 fps | 100% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 107 | <<locked>> | 92% | 55,912 psi | 90% | 2710 fps | 99% |
| Bofors RP3 | <<locked>> | 96% | 53,171 psi | 85% | 2677 fps | 99.8% |
| Hodgdon Benchmark | <<locked>> | 88% | 54,404 psi | 87% | 2598 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon BL-C2 | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,230 psi | 87% | 2684 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon CFE223 | <<locked>> | 88% | 55,999 psi | 90% | 2772 fps | 99.4% |
| Hodgdon H322 | <<locked>> | 86% | 56,246 psi | 90% | 2654 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon H335 | <<locked>> | 84% | 53,853 psi | 86% | 2635 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon H380 | <<locked>> | 96% | 54,897 psi | 88% | 2687 fps | 98.4% |
| Hodgdon H4895 | <<locked>> | 90% | 53,185 psi | 85% | 2657 fps | 99.7% |
| Hodgdon Hybrid 100Vᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 42,264 psi | 68% | 2513 fps | 98.2% |
| Hodgdon LEVERevolution | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,274 psi | 89% | 2733 fps | 99.9% |
| Hodgdon TrailBossᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 34,824 psi | 56% | 1591 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon VARGET | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,781 psi | 88% | 2664 fps | 99.7% |
| IMR 3031 | <<locked>> | 92% | 56,115 psi | 90% | 2697 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4064 | <<locked>> | 94% | 53,258 psi | 85% | 2628 fps | 99.1% |
| IMR 4166 Enduron | <<locked>> | 92% | 53,983 psi | 87% | 2605 fps | 96.1% |
| IMR 4198 | <<locked>> | 84% | 54,259 psi | 87% | 2536 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4451 Enduronᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 56,246 psi | 90% | 2671 fps | 96.4% |
| IMR 4831ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 44,222 psi | 71% | 2562 fps | 97.1% |
| IMR 4895 | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,245 psi | 89% | 2713 fps | 99.6% |
| IMR 8208 XBR | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,419 psi | 89% | 2654 fps | 99.9% |
| Lovex D073.5 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,724 psi | 89% | 2644 fps | 100% |
| Lovex D073.6 | <<locked>> | 92% | 55,448 psi | 89% | 2677 fps | 100% |
| Lovex S060 | <<locked>> | 92% | 56,318 psi | 90% | 2631 fps | 99.6% |
| Lovex S062 | <<locked>> | 96% | 55,999 psi | 90% | 2674 fps | 100% |
| Lovex S065ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 51,677 psi | 83% | 2612 fps | 97.1% |
| Norma 201 | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,824 psi | 88% | 2644 fps | 99.9% |
| Norma 202 | <<locked>> | 92% | 55,187 psi | 88% | 2651 fps | 100% |
| Norma 203B | <<locked>> | 96% | 56,391 psi | 90% | 2720 fps | 99.7% |
| Norma URPᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 46,441 psi | 74% | 2612 fps | 97.4% |
| Ramshot Big Game | <<locked>> | 94% | 53,185 psi | 85% | 2694 fps | 99.3% |
| Ramshot TAC | <<locked>> | 90% | 56,057 psi | 90% | 2667 fps | 98% |
| Ramshot Wild Boar | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,216 psi | 89% | 2690 fps | 99.5% |
| Ramshot X-Terminator | <<locked>> | 86% | 53,301 psi | 85% | 2608 fps | 99.3% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 14ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 35,157 psi | 56% | 1627 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 40 | <<locked>> | 86% | 55,259 psi | 89% | 2641 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 50 | <<locked>> | 96% | 55,332 psi | 89% | 2667 fps | 97% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 52 | <<locked>> | 92% | 53,679 psi | 86% | 2746 fps | 99.2% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 60 | <<locked>> | 98% | 53,171 psi | 85% | 2772 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 62ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 45,934 psi | 74% | 2631 fps | 97.1% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 70ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 47,268 psi | 76% | 2651 fps | 96.5% |
| Rottweil R 901 | <<locked>> | 90% | 56,072 psi | 90% | 2635 fps | 100% |
| Rottweil R 902 | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,201 psi | 89% | 2641 fps | 99.9% |
| Rottweil R 903 | <<locked>> | 98% | 53,026 psi | 85% | 2667 fps | 99.7% |
| Shooters World Long Rifleᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 51,677 psi | 83% | 2612 fps | 97.1% |
| Shooters World Match Rifle | <<locked>> | 92% | 55,448 psi | 89% | 2677 fps | 100% |
| Shooters World Precision | <<locked>> | 96% | 55,999 psi | 90% | 2674 fps | 100% |
| Shooters World Tactical Rifle | <<locked>> | 84% | 55,143 psi | 88% | 2615 fps | 99.8% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 10 | <<locked>> | 82% | 54,549 psi | 87% | 2638 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 11 | <<locked>> | 98% | 54,897 psi | 88% | 2726 fps | 99.5% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 3 | <<locked>> | 84% | 54,795 psi | 88% | 2592 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 7 | <<locked>> | 90% | 54,027 psi | 87% | 2644 fps | 98.2% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 9 | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,650 psi | 88% | 2671 fps | 99.5% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 3000 | <<locked>> | 90% | 53,664 psi | 86% | 2552 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 5000 | <<locked>> | 96% | 53,287 psi | 85% | 2549 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S321 | <<locked>> | 86% | 53,287 psi | 85% | 2644 fps | 99.9% |
| Somchem S335 | <<locked>> | 92% | 55,999 psi | 90% | 2592 fps | 100% |
| Somchem S341 | <<locked>> | 90% | 53,476 psi | 86% | 2638 fps | 99.3% |
| Somchem S355 | <<locked>> | 98% | 53,592 psi | 86% | 2664 fps | 99.7% |
| Somchem S365ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 41,249 psi | 66% | 2562 fps | 99.2% |
| Vihtavuori N130 | <<locked>> | 86% | 53,606 psi | 86% | 2523 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N133 | <<locked>> | 90% | 53,621 psi | 86% | 2539 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N135 | <<locked>> | 94% | 54,215 psi | 87% | 2612 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N140 | <<locked>> | 94% | 55,622 psi | 89% | 2628 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N150ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 55,274 psi | 89% | 2651 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N160ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 48,791 psi | 78% | 2612 fps | 97.7% |
| Vihtavuori N530 | <<locked>> | 90% | 56,072 psi | 90% | 2654 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N540 | <<locked>> | 94% | 53,838 psi | 86% | 2628 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N550ᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 47,935 psi | 77% | 2618 fps | 97.4% |
| Winchester 6.5 StaBALLᴾ | <<locked>> | 100% | 50,111 psi | 80% | 2605 fps | 99.4% |
| Winchester 748 | <<locked>> | 90% | 55,332 psi | 89% | 2700 fps | 100% |
| Winchester StaBALL Match | <<locked>> | 92% | 54,186 psi | 87% | 2677 fps | 99.7% |
Recommended = one of the top powders for this cartridge and bullet combination.
Start Load - Barrel Length: 23.62"
| Powder | Charge | FR | MaxP | % | V(0) | z |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Accurate 2015 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,148 psi | 68% | 2398 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2460 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,818 psi | 73% | 2493 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2495 | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,664 psi | 56% | 2316 fps | 100% |
| Accurate 2520 | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,944 psi | 66% | 2448 fps | 99.6% |
| Accurate 4064 | <<locked>> | 80% | 32,793 psi | 53% | 2297 fps | 99% |
| Accurate 4350 | <<locked>> | 94% | 37,681 psi | 60% | 2457 fps | 95.2% |
| Accurate LT-30 | <<locked>> | 80% | 50,415 psi | 81% | 2470 fps | 100% |
| Accurate LT-32 | <<locked>> | 80% | 50,807 psi | 81% | 2490 fps | 100% |
| ADI AR 2206H | <<locked>> | 80% | 38,595 psi | 62% | 2398 fps | 96.8% |
| ADI AR 2208 | <<locked>> | 84% | 37,347 psi | 60% | 2359 fps | 95.6% |
| ADI AR 2219 | <<locked>> | 80% | 50,575 psi | 81% | 2579 fps | 100% |
| ADI Benchmark 8208 | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,596 psi | 65% | 2415 fps | 98.5% |
| Alliant AR-Comp | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,682 psi | 64% | 2418 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Power Pro 1200-R | <<locked>> | 80% | 46,949 psi | 75% | 2598 fps | 99.1% |
| Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR | 53.3 gr | 82% | 37,173 psi | 60% | 2457 fps | 95% |
| Alliant Reloder- TS 15.5 | <<locked>> | 80% | 31,937 psi | 51% | 2277 fps | 95.7% |
| Alliant Reloder-10x | <<locked>> | 80% | 47,718 psi | 77% | 2490 fps | 100% |
| Alliant Reloder-15 | <<locked>> | 82% | 36,767 psi | 59% | 2382 fps | 95.7% |
| Alliant Reloder-16 | <<locked>> | 94% | 38,609 psi | 62% | 2470 fps | 95.3% |
| Alliant Reloder-17 | <<locked>> | 86% | 33,750 psi | 54% | 2388 fps | 95.4% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 106 | <<locked>> | 80% | 49,298 psi | 79% | 2467 fps | 100% |
| Baschieri & Pellagri 107 | <<locked>> | 80% | 37,405 psi | 60% | 2395 fps | 95.2% |
| Bofors RP3 | <<locked>> | 80% | 31,328 psi | 50% | 2277 fps | 95.6% |
| Hodgdon Benchmark | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,757 psi | 69% | 2415 fps | 99.2% |
| Hodgdon BL-C2 | <<locked>> | 80% | 38,711 psi | 62% | 2428 fps | 98.6% |
| Hodgdon CFE223 | <<locked>> | 80% | 42,453 psi | 68% | 2549 fps | 97.3% |
| Hodgdon H322 | <<locked>> | 80% | 46,427 psi | 74% | 2516 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon H335 | <<locked>> | 80% | 47,123 psi | 76% | 2536 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon H380 | <<locked>> | 86% | 39,465 psi | 63% | 2428 fps | 95% |
| Hodgdon H4895 | <<locked>> | 80% | 38,899 psi | 62% | 2411 fps | 97.5% |
| Hodgdon Hybrid 100V | <<locked>> | 92% | 33,040 psi | 53% | 2320 fps | 95.3% |
| Hodgdon LEVERevolution | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,809 psi | 56% | 2375 fps | 96.8% |
| Hodgdon TrailBoss | <<locked>> | 80% | 25,904 psi | 42% | 1421 fps | 100% |
| Hodgdon VARGET | <<locked>> | 80% | 37,536 psi | 60% | 2369 fps | 97.1% |
| IMR 3031 | <<locked>> | 80% | 37,956 psi | 61% | 2418 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4064 | <<locked>> | 82% | 36,811 psi | 59% | 2339 fps | 95.8% |
| IMR 4166 Enduron | <<locked>> | 90% | 50,836 psi | 82% | 2559 fps | 95.4% |
| IMR 4198 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,269 psi | 77% | 2454 fps | 100% |
| IMR 4451 Enduron | <<locked>> | 96% | 49,893 psi | 80% | 2572 fps | 95.1% |
| IMR 4831 | <<locked>> | 96% | 38,885 psi | 62% | 2464 fps | 95.7% |
| IMR 4895 | <<locked>> | 80% | 35,317 psi | 57% | 2362 fps | 95.9% |
| IMR 8208 XBR | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,596 psi | 65% | 2415 fps | 98.5% |
| Lovex D073.5 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,527 psi | 73% | 2497 fps | 99.7% |
| Lovex D073.6 | <<locked>> | 80% | 36,999 psi | 59% | 2382 fps | 99.1% |
| Lovex S060 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,363 psi | 63% | 2352 fps | 97.1% |
| Lovex S062 | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,258 psi | 55% | 2300 fps | 97% |
| Lovex S065 | <<locked>> | 94% | 43,018 psi | 69% | 2470 fps | 95.1% |
| Norma 201 | <<locked>> | 80% | 38,014 psi | 61% | 2362 fps | 98% |
| Norma 202 | <<locked>> | 80% | 37,898 psi | 61% | 2375 fps | 99.6% |
| Norma 203B | <<locked>> | 80% | 33,924 psi | 54% | 2323 fps | 95.4% |
| Norma URP | <<locked>> | 94% | 38,218 psi | 61% | 2457 fps | 95.1% |
| Ramshot Big Game | <<locked>> | 82% | 35,636 psi | 57% | 2382 fps | 95.6% |
| Ramshot TAC | <<locked>> | 82% | 43,352 psi | 70% | 2464 fps | 95.4% |
| Ramshot Wild Boar | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,668 psi | 64% | 2431 fps | 97.1% |
| Ramshot X-Terminator | <<locked>> | 80% | 43,947 psi | 70% | 2461 fps | 97.9% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 14 | <<locked>> | 80% | 26,107 psi | 42% | 1453 fps | 100% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 40 | <<locked>> | 80% | 45,672 psi | 73% | 2500 fps | 99.8% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 50 | <<locked>> | 92% | 48,762 psi | 78% | 2566 fps | 95.7% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 52 | 50.4 gr | 80% | 35,549 psi | 57% | 2415 fps | 95.2% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 60 | 51.2 gr | 80% | 29,501 psi | 47% | 2283 fps | 96.1% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 62 | <<locked>> | 96% | 40,292 psi | 65% | 2526 fps | 95.5% |
| ReloadSwiss RS 70 | <<locked>> | 98% | 44,164 psi | 71% | 2592 fps | 95.6% |
| Rottweil R 901 | <<locked>> | 80% | 41,713 psi | 67% | 2411 fps | 99.8% |
| Rottweil R 902 | <<locked>> | 80% | 36,129 psi | 58% | 2320 fps | 97.5% |
| Rottweil R 903 | <<locked>> | 82% | 31,430 psi | 50% | 2270 fps | 95.3% |
| Shooters World Long Rifle | <<locked>> | 94% | 43,018 psi | 69% | 2470 fps | 95.1% |
| Shooters World Match Rifle | <<locked>> | 80% | 36,999 psi | 59% | 2382 fps | 99.1% |
| Shooters World Precision | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,258 psi | 55% | 2300 fps | 97% |
| Shooters World Tactical Rifle | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,182 psi | 77% | 2513 fps | 99.3% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 10 | <<locked>> | 80% | 51,068 psi | 82% | 2589 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 11 | <<locked>> | 84% | 34,824 psi | 56% | 2369 fps | 95.4% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 3 | <<locked>> | 80% | 48,414 psi | 78% | 2507 fps | 100% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 7 | <<locked>> | 82% | 41,205 psi | 66% | 2434 fps | 95.4% |
| SNPE Vectan SP 9 | <<locked>> | 80% | 37,144 psi | 60% | 2372 fps | 96.4% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 3000 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,624 psi | 64% | 2333 fps | 99.7% |
| SNPE Vectan Tubal 5000 | <<locked>> | 80% | 32,561 psi | 52% | 2208 fps | 99.3% |
| Somchem S321 | <<locked>> | 80% | 43,468 psi | 70% | 2487 fps | 99.2% |
| Somchem S335 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,131 psi | 63% | 2339 fps | 99.9% |
| Somchem S341 | <<locked>> | 80% | 38,072 psi | 61% | 2382 fps | 96.6% |
| Somchem S355 | <<locked>> | 82% | 32,648 psi | 52% | 2283 fps | 95.5% |
| Somchem S365 | <<locked>> | 90% | 30,052 psi | 48% | 2303 fps | 95.6% |
| Vihtavuori N130 | <<locked>> | 80% | 44,933 psi | 72% | 2402 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N133 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,740 psi | 64% | 2336 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N135 | <<locked>> | 80% | 35,085 psi | 56% | 2316 fps | 100% |
| Vihtavuori N140 | <<locked>> | 80% | 35,882 psi | 58% | 2316 fps | 99.5% |
| Vihtavuori N150 | <<locked>> | 80% | 28,964 psi | 46% | 2178 fps | 95.6% |
| Vihtavuori N160 | <<locked>> | 94% | 40,335 psi | 65% | 2464 fps | 95.7% |
| Vihtavuori N530 | <<locked>> | 80% | 40,654 psi | 65% | 2411 fps | 98.5% |
| Vihtavuori N540 | <<locked>> | 80% | 34,476 psi | 55% | 2303 fps | 98.9% |
| Vihtavuori N550 | <<locked>> | 94% | 39,378 psi | 63% | 2464 fps | 95.2% |
| Winchester 6.5 StaBALL | <<locked>> | 88% | 33,750 psi | 54% | 2297 fps | 95.6% |
| Winchester 748 | <<locked>> | 80% | 39,479 psi | 63% | 2448 fps | 99% |
| Winchester StaBALL Match | <<locked>> | 80% | 36,347 psi | 58% | 2372 fps | 96.8% |
Recommended = one of the top powders for this cartridge and bullet combination.
ᴾ possible press load - work up slowly to this load while watching for signs of excessive pressure.
This overview compares 93 powders for 8.5 x 63 loaded with the .338 | 210gr | Rhino Solid Shank. Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR delivers the highest muzzle velocity at 2,802 fps; across all powders the maximum-charge window runs from 1,591 fps to 2,802 fps. Accurate 4350 gives the best case fill at 100 %, and 93 of the 93 powders fall inside the usable 80–100 % fill window.
Relative to the caliber's maximum pressure (430 MPa), the top charges use 56–90 %, leaving at least 10 % headroom. The 210.0 gr projectile in 0.338" calls for a 1:17.0 twist; slower twists will usually not stabilise this weight. Accurate 4350, Alliant Reloder-16, Alliant Reloder-17 reach 100 % fill or more at maximum charge, so these are compressed loads: they need a long drop tube to seat cleanly and react sensitively to the case capacity of your own brass lot. Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR, ReloadSwiss RS 52, ReloadSwiss RS 60 rank at the top here: for 8.5 x 63 with the .338 | 210gr | Rhino Solid Shank they combine a high case fill with complete burn and sit in the upper velocity band. Always begin at the start load and work up in small increments while checking case and primer for pressure signs.